Resource USUM OU ULTRA Viability Ranking Thread

[Felixx]

Scolipede C- > C/C+
I already said this twice. It’s an under appreciated threat that can be an effective sweeper. Players are mostly prepared for Hawlucha with mons like Clefable, and Zapdos to counter it out. But Lucha beats both (except for Defensive Zapdos) with Poison Jab. Pex is declining and Clefable is on the rise so Poison Jab is more fitting rn but Earthquake can be used. Plus it OHKOs Tornadus after rocks

+2 252+ Atk Scolipede Poison Jab vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Zapdos: 271-319 (70.7 - 83.2%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery

I don’t want to go over the calcs vs Clefable cause it’s obvious what will happen. Now I don’t want to make all my posts into a Scolipede parade so here’s several noms from me.

Nihilego C- > C
Now I know this thing already dropped but the meta is more beneficial towards it. Toxapex’s Reign Of Terror is slowly vanishing and the likes of Clefable and Tornadus increasing in usage is a big deal for Nihilego. Being able to set up rocks vs almost every viable defogger is a nice niche to have. It also doesn’t have to worry about Pex absorbing Toxic Spikes anymore. I believe it should go back to C rank for those reasons.

Alolan Ninetales/Cresselia & Uxie/Araquanid/Shuckle
C+/C > C-
Trick Room, Veil, Webs. What do they all have in common? They are mostly irrelevant in the meta and take a lot of support to execute these playstyles correctly. All five of these mons should drop to C- since their roles are too obscure to be ranked this high in the meta. Veil and Webs get bombarded by our common defoggers and Trick Room requires an entire turn to set up. Bottom line, drop them down.

Crawdaunt > C-
Speaking of Trick Room, Crawdaunt is shredded by the sheer decline of Trick Room. The rise of Clefable and the ever so growing KokoLucha cores is too much for it to handle. If it didn’t have to face competition from Mega-Swampert, Hawlucha, or Qwilfish as rain sweepers than it would’ve definitely deserved to be were it’s at. But right now, it’s plain mediocre.

Manaphy C+ > C
Manaphy was one of the biggest victims to the Gen 7 power creep. Even though Tail Glow + 100 Sp.A is still a deadly combo, it’s base 100 Speed can’t hold it together anymore. The popularity of KokoLucha, Zapdos, and AV Bulu/Amoonguss, as well as Gastrodon makes me wonder why is this ranked this high. It’s a waste of a Z-slot and one mom that tried to fill a niche in playstyles like Webs, Bird Spam, and Veil all failed to stay relevant in the meta. And so did Manaphy.

Mega-Charizard Y C+ > B-
This is an example of a mon that was overhated. Completely walled by Toxapex, weak to rocks, and outclassed by Blacephalon were the main issues for it. But guess what happened? Toxapex (again) is on a bit of a decline, defoggers are more common, and Blacephalon is considered awful. I really think this thing could potentially rise up in the future. Nothing besides Pex and the Mega-Lati twins can swap into it and can swap into a good number of mons like Defensive Lando, Non-Twave Clefable, Non-Toxic Heatran, Mega-Scizor, etc.

Thundurus-I C+ > B-
Thundurus is certainly underrated imo and has a few unique but helpful traits to set it apart from Koko and Zapdos. Instead of discussing it’s offensive toolkit, why not it’s supportive tool kit. Prankster Defog means it is near guaranteed to get rocks off the field giving it an advantage over Zapdos. It has other utility moves to use in conjunction with Prankster like Taunt, Substitute, Toxic, Twave (Because Hawlucha), and Knock Off even though it’s not affected by Prankster. Another underrated set is the mixed Defiant set to punish defoggers such as Tornadus, Gliscor, or even Zapdos. It can not only clear hazards away, but also pressure the use of Defog and Intimidate as well. Can I also mention it’s speed tier let’s it outpace Kartana, Mega-Medicham, and Mega-Pinsir making it a better check to those three. Overall, it’s an underrated mon with utility and speed that needs more representation.

Gastrodon B+ > A-
So Gastrodon rose to B+. But why stop there? It’s arguably one of the best Koko counters we have in the everlasting battle to find the best Koko counter. It does more than counter Koko ofc. It’s well known as a stop to Lando, Greninja, and Magearna. But the main reason for it to rise besides the SPL success it has had is how many cores it can create with the defensive top tiers. Tapu Bulu, Celesteela, Ferrothorn, Landorus, Toxapex, Amoonguss, I can go on. Oh and speaking of Koko

Tapu Koko A+ > S-
I’m still surprised it hasn’t rose to the top yet. Ever since the beginning of the SuMo meta, it has found a way to get even more versatile and stronger. It has forced players to use non-4x weak to ice ground types to counter it out. It had nearly shifted the meta all by its self. It single handedly made Hawlucha and even rain viable and amazing, and has evolved to adapt to the changes in the meta from the Specs Set to the Shuca Set, it is absolutely splashable and a meta defining threat that will probably stay top tier for years to come.

Alolan Ninetales/Cresselia & Uxie/Araquanid/Shuckle
C+/C > C- : Disagree for A-Ninetales
I'm disagreeing with dropping A-Ninetales since its usage has actually been rising and Veil is making a comeback after such a long time, and also if your point is that you can Defog away the screens, well that isn't that easy to do since common Defoggers like Torn and Scarf Lando can't Defog against A-Tales freely, so it's easier said than done. No comment on Trick Room however.

Thundurus-I C+ > B- : Disagree
Have you actually tried using Thundy-I? Pranster Defog isn't really as good as some people think, well for 1, Thundy's weak to rocks and has bad bulk overall, so keeping it alive can be hard, as well as Gastro being a common staple that hard walls it, also let's just say that your set is Tbolt, HP Ice, Focus Miss, Defog, well I mean unless you're running LO you're getting walled by rising ORAS Queen big Clef, and if you are running LO you're getting chipped down easily and put into range of more attacks. Now what if you're Twave over Focus Miss? well then you're walled by Heatran and it should be able to keep rocks on the field against you if we don't count the para chance. Sub is unviable overall, and Taunt is really really niche, Knock Off is kinda cool, but again, losing to Heatran. Mixed Defiant is something I've seen and it's pretty threatening and also has surprise factor, but it's easy to revenge kill, won't deny it's actually a good set though.

 

[Katy]

Alolan Ninetales/Cresselia & Uxie/Araquanid/Shuckle
C+/C > C- : Disagree for A-Ninetales

Also disagree with a drop on Ninetales. She sees more usage lately again, and Veil is pretty successfull again. I rather rise it one subrank than drop it.
The new team with Mega Zam, Manaphy and Zygarde works pretty well, which is on the ladder now. And Ninetales Alola really made a comeback, not only usagewise, she guarantees these mons a win, Her supportive role with Insta-Dual-Screens still and again is a viable option.
Ninetales Alola from C to C+

 

[steki desu]

Scolipede C- > C/C+
Manaphy C+ > C
Manaphy was one of the biggest victims to the Gen 7 power creep. Even though Tail Glow + 100 Sp.A is still a deadly combo, it’s base 100 Speed can’t hold it together anymore. The popularity of KokoLucha, Zapdos, and AV Bulu/Amoonguss, as well as Gastrodon makes me wonder why is this ranked this high. It’s a waste of a Z-slot and one mom that tried to fill a niche in playstyles like Webs, Bird Spam, and Veil all failed to stay relevant in the meta. And so did Manaphy.

I disagree. Although you make a good point in Koko (which still can't switch in that well as its taking 60-70 from an unboosted surf) + Av Bulu, I don't believe Zapdos, Amoonguss and Gastrodon counter or even check Manaphy. Zapdos gets OHKed by +3 Surf (and Zapdos cant even come close to OHKing back), Amoonguss is OHKed by +3 Psychic (AV takes 70ish, Manaphy can actually setup on it since Giga Drain is doing like less than 50% and if it has Clear Smog, Amoonguss is forced to use it and Manaphy can keep pressuring it with Psychic), Gastrodon is forced to EQ it which is doing 23% maximum and Manaphy can setup on it and kill it with two +6 Psychics.

I believe Manaphy has a good enough niche on Screens/Veil and Webs offense, as well as being an excellent stallbreaker (seriously, very little builds can beat this thing) to stay in C+ in along with mons such as Hydreigon, M-Manectric and Mimikyu.

Also, it can serve as a halfway decent lategame wincon with Z-Rain Dance once all of its checks are gone, as its hitting 449 speed minimum where most of the common scarfers can't really kill it and priority moves are doing less than 50% thanks to its typing + natural bulk. Unboosted surfs under rain still do a lot, doing enough damage to secure OHKs on stuff like Koko.

 

[BlueLobster]

Nihilego C- > C
Now I know this thing already dropped but the meta is more beneficial towards it. Toxapex’s Reign Of Terror is slowly vanishing and the likes of Clefable and Tornadus increasing in usage is a big deal for Nihilego. Being able to set up rocks vs almost every viable defogger is a nice niche to have. It also doesn’t have to worry about Pex absorbing Toxic Spikes anymore. I believe it should go back to C rank for those reasons.

Alolan Ninetales/Cresselia & Uxie/Araquanid/Shuckle
C+/C > C-
Trick Room, Veil, Webs. What do they all have in common? They are mostly irrelevant in the meta and take a lot of support to execute these playstyles correctly. All five of these mons should drop to C- since their roles are too obscure to be ranked this high in the meta. Veil and Webs get bombarded by our common defoggers and Trick Room requires an entire turn to set up. Bottom line, drop them down.

Disagree with these. Nihilego is simply terrible and honestly idk why it's still ranked. It's sole niche is to set SR + tspikes in one slot but the thing is tspikes are not even that great due to pex still being common (albeit less so than before) and the best defoggers being immune to them. One of the big reasons behind pex dropping is that tspikes (one of its biggest weapons earlier in the meta) have become less potent, so why would I run a shitmon just to get tspikes? Also Nihi is mostly used as a lead as its physical bulk is atrocious, so it wont be sticking around to beat the defoggers it beats as it will have died to get the hazards there in the first place. I don't like bringing up usage but this thing gets very little usage for a reason: it's bad and basically unviable. I would support a nom for it to go UR, not a rise to C.

Ninetales-a: As others said, veil has had a bit of a resurgence and tales also isnt defog bait, which is always nice. Also I'm not sure what you mean when you say veil is "bombarded" by common defoggers when there is a mon on veil that sets up on like every defogger, as well as a good chunk of them losing to tales as well. It also likes the meta trends such as gastro rising, as it beats it with freeze dry, with the only somewhat bad trend for it is a decline in rain, which it has a great mu against. Yes it faces some competition with screens Koko being the primary choice for screens atm, but this is still a good pick and has the advantage of having an extra moveslot from only needing 1 move for screens, as well as great utility moves such as hypnosis, encore and even heal bell which I've seen on some veil teams. This really doesn't need to drop.

Araquanid: While webs has gotten a little worse, it's still a playstyle that can be pulled off sucessfully. I feel like people underrate araqua in general, I find that this mon can put in work as an offensive water on teams that benefit from webs, but dont require them at all costs. It's liquidation is extremely powerful and can be a great asset against fatter teams where you don't really need webs up, so can utilise its offensive capabilities, and it also can check Greninja due to it's amazing SpD and resisting water, which I've found invaluable. I honestly wouldn't think twice about recommending this mon on bulky offense teams that dont necessarily need webs but get some use out of them as it has other useful assets, like the ability to check gren, tran, lando etc. Defog has always been a problem for webs, this is not new, yet araqua has been C+ for a long time anyway. People always seem to forget this mon has such a powerful liquidaton, meaning some common defoggers like torn-t cannot switch into it safely. I've even seen araqua on teams that don't even use it for webs, for instance banded on TR. This mon is really more than just a web setter, which I've realized after using it as one for so long. I agree shuckle should drop though, as it is a far worse setter with literally no utility other than webs/rocks.

Not much to say on TR mons, but they are still very annoying to face and I think they're fine where they are. Not that much has got worse for them to the point where I'd think TR has gotten so much worse we should drop the TR mons. Also, C+/C is really not high so their roles are not that "obscure" for their ranks. Bear in mind many of the C- mons (including one you are nomming to rise) are used far less than these mons that are the faces of their playstyles, as opposed to obscure picks like Avalugg/Nihi/Azelf are.

 

[Mellow]

Disagree with these. Nihilego is simply terrible and honestly idk why it's still ranked. It's sole niche is to set SR + tspikes in one slot but the thing is tspikes are not even that great due to pex still being common (albeit less so than before) and the best defoggers being immune to them. One of the big reasons behind pex dropping is that tspikes (one of its biggest weapons earlier in the meta) have become less potent, so why would I run a shitmon just to get tspikes? Also Nihi is mostly used as a lead as its physical bulk is atrocious, so it wont be sticking around to beat the defoggers it beats as it will have died to get the hazards there in the first place. I don't like bringing up usage but this thing gets very little usage for a reason: it's bad and basically unviable. I would support a nom for it to go UR, not a rise to C.

I don't really care about all these C- noms, but you have some misconceptions about what Nihilego actually does. It's niche is absolutely not as a rocks + tspikes suicide lead, it hasn't been used for that since early SM. It's niche is that it's a tspiker than beats most defoggers such as Tornadus, Gliscor (if running HP Ice), Mega Scizor (if HP Fire), Zapdos etc. I personally think it's best set is Z Thunderbolt/Thunder to threaten Toxapex and Celesteela. This isn't to say its viable though, it probably should stay in C- since Torn has risen in usage which it cucks but as has Gastro which cucks Nihilego, but I just wanted wanted to clear up a few misconceptions.

 

[ZiodyneDX]

p

Alolan Ninetales/Cresselia & Uxie/Araquanid/Shuckle
C+/C > C- : Disagree for A-Ninetales

Also disagree with a drop on Ninetales. She sees more usage lately again, and Veil is pretty successfull again. I rather rise it one subrank than drop it.
The new team with Mega Zam, Manaphy and Zygarde works pretty well, which is on the ladder now. And Ninetales Alola really made a comeback, not only usagewise, she guarantees these mons a win, Her supportive role with Insta-Dual-Screens still and again is a viable option.
Ninetales Alola from C to C+

Yea I agree for the A-Ninetales rise. Its Aroura-Veil is becoming more popular again. Pokemon that can benefit such as wallbreakers that are pretty frail themselves (M-Medicham, M-Alakazam.) Or set-up sweepers that lack ways to recover lost health on thier own (Volcorona, Offesnive-Zygarde)

It can also soft-check many common defog mons like Zapdos, Tornadus-T, Rotom-W etc at least keeojng th from Defoging away veil while Ninetales is still out.
Plus is can wreck the increasingly popular Gastrodon with Freeze-Dry

 

[Colonel M]

This is not the place to post your lamenting on a Pokemon being unranked. You either bring up to re-rank it with arguments and replays, or your post gets deleted and (next time) infracted.

Adhere to the rules so I can stop babysitting so hard in this thread.

 

[power]

Might be a controversial nom but...

Clefable A+ -> S-

If you've been watching tour games recently or playing this tier much at all you know exactly what Clefable does. Clefable is one of the best, arguably the best Stealth Rocker in the tier right now, and it's the reason this tier has gravitated so much toward fatter balance teams lately. Between passing off Wishes to teammates or just Calm Minding up after setting Stealth Rock, Clefable is one of the best Pokemon in SM OU and I think it should be recognized as such. Its utility in the current metagame cannot be understated, between checking Zygarde, Landorus-T, etc. It's stupidly hard to deal with long term and a large majority of teams in the current metagame end up only having Heatran as a long-term check anyway. Magic Guard lets it pivot in on virtually every bulky Pokemon in this meta from Toxapex to Ferrothorn. Clefable + Scarf Landorus-T and Clefable + Gliscor are some of the best cores this meta has to offer, too. Immunity to Spikes is godly and lets you smash opposing fat teams by just trading Spikes against Toxapex + Ferrothorn and switching around.

Move this thing up.

 

[Felixx]

Might be a controversial nom but...

Clefable A+ -> S-

If you've been watching tour games recently or playing this tier much at all you know exactly what Clefable does. Clefable is one of the best, arguably the best Stealth Rocker in the tier right now, and it's the reason this tier has gravitated so much toward fatter balance teams lately. Between passing off Wishes to teammates or just Calm Minding up after setting Stealth Rock, Clefable is one of the best Pokemon in SM OU and I think it should be recognized as such. Its utility in the current metagame cannot be understated, between checking Zygarde, Landorus-T, etc. It's stupidly hard to deal with long term and a large majority of teams in the current metagame end up only having Heatran as a long-term check anyway. Magic Guard lets it pivot in on virtually every bulky Pokemon in this meta from Toxapex to Ferrothorn. Clefable + Scarf Landorus-T and Clefable + Gliscor are some of the best cores this meta has to offer, too.

Move this thing up.

She's back. I'm supporting Clefable from A+ to S-. Clef is both splashable, and versatile, two traits an S- Pokemon should have. Clef is simple amazing, and as said before, it is the best Rocker in the tier and is able to pass fat Wishes (Clef alone is the reason that Tran can forgoe Lefties and run a Z-move more effectively now), but I want to talk more about the boosting sets. CM Clef is and has always been effective, but I'd also like to bring up the point that Pex's viability as a whole has been dropping, and that makes CM all the more of a threat, as well as the niche Cosmic Power set that has shown to be pretty effective due to it walling entire offensive teams, although it suffers from being more passive. The rising effectiveness of other passive mons also helps it, examples include Gastrodon and Zapdos, as these are both mons that Clef Rocks on for free. Extremely powerful breakers like Tapu Lele, Kyurem-B, and M-Mawile have also fallen out of favour, while mons that Clef can soft check such as M-Medi and M-Latios are becoming increasing common, only adding to its effectiveness. Clef also just has so many different options it can run. Need to cripple Tran? Use Knock Off. Want to slow down Volc? Twave. Clef is simply a staple on all different types of teams, ranging from BO, to Balance, to Stall, and thus it warrants a rise to S-. The ORAS Queen wants her throne back.

 

[Indigo Plateau]

--> A
Mega Latios is one of the best megas atm and the rankings should reflect that. This nom should come as no surprise to most people, as it's been a staple on a lot of BO builds for the past months. Its versatile movepool means that it can dent a lot of common defensive backbones seen nowadays. With access to Draco Meteor, Psychic, Ice Beam, Earthquake, and HP Fire (among others), Latios is effectively able to beat all of the following: Lando, Kartana, Heatran, Toxapex, Ferrothorn, Tangrowth, Zygarde, Bulu, Koko, Zapdos, etc. This movepool versatility allows it to custom pick which moves to use in order to help its team the most. Levitate allows it to be used in hazard stacking builds, which makes Latios even more of a threat as it allows it to 2hko certain Pokemon like Tyranitar, one of its most reliable answers. Access to reliable recovery in Roost makes it even harder to wear down, and it can even clear hazards with Defog if need be. Clefable and Torn-T have both seen more usage, and Latios can beat both of these 1v1 with Rocks up. Throughout SmogTours, it was in the top 3 most used megas alongside Scizor and Latias, and the rankings should reflect that.

--> A
"sedertz: if u nom mlatios nom gliscor too"
Running out of time so I'll keep this short and to the point: SD Gliscor is phenomenal at taking advantage of a ton of passive Pokemon like Clefable, Ferrothorn, and Toxapex. Clefable, Gastrodon, Reuniclus, and Hippowdown all rose in the most recent VR update, and Gliscor can take advantage of all these. The ability to take on Heatran, which is arguably one of the most annoying Pokemon in the current metagame, is a boon for any build.

and

should probably rise too, but I'll get to those at some other point

 

[Thunder Pwoell]

actually I believe that clef should go down. It has no reason to even be close to a- in the first place let alone S. if you prepare enough - you should prep for many mons like clef - it is easily dead weight and setup bait. idk why yall niggas hyping it and frankly i dont care lmao bc no matter what i say yall gonna do what yall gonna do. many mons in the tier and a whole lot outside pretty much beat clef outright and if ur team is weak to clef, it is pretty easy to just add 1 mon so it's just not.

 

[Ryomathekillers]

Celesteela A -> A-

In the current meta Celesteela just kinda sucks, out of the top tier pokemon it manages to only beat a few: Scarf lando (Kinda), Kartana (Kinda) M Scizor,Ferrothorn (who still gets up a layer of spikes) and clefable (all these pokemon can either get a hazard up on the switch or can use U-turn for momentum or just beat it with a certain set), However the amount of pokemon who beat it is amazing: Zapdos,Koko,The rising magnezone, Ash gren and I could go on, it also doesn't help that lele has fallen out of favour as that was one of the main use for steela. It also isn't exactly a good thing that CM Latias Can use this thing as setup bait and that heatran manages to demolish it.

I also find it really hard to compare it to the other A pokemon as they seem much better, and even the pokemon in A- Like The MLatis,Zapdos,Gliscor and M-Pinsir are better than this thing.

I find a drop to A- more than justifiable for Celesteela.

 

[Finchinator]

We actually voted Blacephalon to C+ and I just wanted to fuck around for a minute btw, consider it C+ for the time being — not UR.

 

[robopoke]

C+ -> B-
Looking at all those power balance teams featuring Gliscors, Clef and Mega Latis or Tornt, Ferro, Heatran I realized that HP Fire Manaphy is incredibly threatening. The drop of Pexusage and people preferring Ferro or Bulu over Mega Venu makes dropping Psychic more acceptable. (Some Mega Venus do not even have Giga Drain btw). This is the Set I am talking about:

Manaphy @ Leftovers
Ability: Hydration
EVs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Tail Glow
- Scald
- Ice Beam
- Hidden Power [Fire]

While Z-Move is nice to break through AV Magearna, Leftovers keeps you healthy over the course of a long game. Again, Clef Wishsupport is incredibly amazing with this Manaphy. You can keep it healthy and use it to switch into Heatrans.

tldr:
1) Pex usage drops, Bulu and Ferro are preffered over Mega Venu -> Psychic can be dropped for HP Fire.
2) Wish Clef trend can be used to keep Manaphy healthy

Hide

We actually voted Blacephalon to C+ and I just wanted to fuck around for a minute btw, consider it C+ for the time being — not UR.

Story:
An employee gets 100$ per day. One day his chef says from now on you only get 80$ because of internal regulations. He was mad and almost decided to quit the job. The next day the chef said "You know what, I like you and you deserve 90$". The employee was so happy he told his wife about this.

 

[Flame from Heaven]

Keldeo from B+ to B
Keldeo is really suffering right now. It’s Waterium Z set is struggling with the omnipresence of Tapu Bulu Balance, meaning it struggles to break bulkier teams as Toxapex is becoming less common. Against more offensive teams, it struggles to find setup opportunities, and even then, it faces issues. Heatran is often paired with Bulu, Landorus-T can easily use U-turn and go into a revenge killer. It really only shines against stall, but stall often has AV Amoongus which walls it. Not to mention it takes your Z-move slot, which could have been used on generally better wallbreakers like, Heatran, Kartana, and Tapu Lele.
The Choice Scarf set is also really bad atm. Volcarona is extremley uncommon right now, and even then, Volcarona often has Psychic, so Keldeo can’t even revenge kill it that well. It is also extremely easy to switch into for many teams because of mons like Clefable, Toxapex, Tapu Bulu, Mega Latios, and AV Magearna. Worse, Mega Latias loves using Keldeo as setup fodder.
Choice Specs is also terrible. A wallbreaker that gets walled by Mega Lati@s, Tapu Bulu, and Toxapex is not a good one.
Keldeo just doesn’t have a very good niche anymore, and its ranking should reflect this.

 

[Mellow]

View attachment 116616Keldeo from B+ to B
Keldeo is really suffering right now. It’s Waterium Z set is struggling with the omnipresence of Tapu Bulu Balance, meaning it struggles to break bulkier teams as Toxapex is becoming less common. Against more offensive teams, it struggles to find setup opportunities, and even then, it faces issues. Heatran is often paired with Bulu, Landorus-T can easily use U-turn and go into a revenge killer. It really only shines against stall, but stall often has AV Amoongus which walls it. Not to mention it takes your Z-move slot, which could have been used on generally better wallbreakers like, Heatran, Kartana, and Tapu Lele.
The Choice Scarf set is also really bad atm. Volcarona is extremley uncommon right now, and even then, Volcarona often has Psychic, so Keldeo can’t even revenge kill it that well. It is also extremely easy to switch into for many teams because of mons like Clefable, Toxapex, Tapu Bulu, Mega Latios, and AV Magearna. Worse, Mega Latias loves using Keldeo as setup fodder.
Choice Specs is also terrible. A wallbreaker that gets walled by Mega Lati@s, Tapu Bulu, and Toxapex is not a good one.
Keldeo just doesn’t have a very good niche anymore, and its ranking should reflect this.

I disagree. Specs is pretty good rn, it really appreciates recent meta trends - Toxapex dropping, Gastrodon rising, SD Mega Scizor being a fantastic set rn and a lot of teams using either Bulu or Ferro as their bulky grass over Tangrowth and Mega Venusaur, both of which you beat with HP Poison and Secret Sword, and finally it appreciates Heatran being as amazing as ever as it is a solid soft check to it.
There are some things that annoy Keldeo rn though - Torn is everywhere to revenge kill it and the Mega Latis are at their best which wall it. However, these weaknesses are easily remedied by running a pursuit trapper - one of either CB Weavile or Mega Tyranitar are great with it.
Weavile can easily trap all 3 because they're shit scared of a banded Crash, and Mega Tyranitar is also good bc it isn't 2HKOd by Mega Latios' Earthquake and it chomps on anything Mega Latias wants to go for (aside from if they're Reflect Type, in which case you can try Superpower) and if you can get it in against Torn then you can freely Pursuit since Superpower is pretty rare.
CB Tyranitar isn't as good as other alternatives bc Mega Latios runs EQ to threaten it.
Keep Keldeo in B+

calcs

252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Gastrodon: 280-331 (65.8 - 77.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Secret Sword vs. 252 HP / 48 Def Ferrothorn: 318-374 (90.3 - 106.2%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Hidden Power Poison vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 256-304 (74.6 - 88.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery
64+ Atk Technician Scizor-Mega Bullet Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 58-69 (17.9 - 21.3%) -- possible 5HKO
64+ Atk Scizor-Mega Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Keldeo: 62-73 (19.1 - 22.6%) -- possible 5HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Scald vs. 248 HP / 16 SpD Scizor-Mega: 192-226 (55.9 - 65.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
4 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 73-87 (22.6 - 26.9%) -- 32.8% chance to 3HKO after trapping damage
252 SpA Heatran Magma Storm vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 89-105 (27.5 - 32.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after trapping damage
252 SpA Heatran Inferno Overdrive (180 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 160-189 (49.5 - 58.5%) -- 98.8% chance to 2HKO
252 SpA Heatran Tectonic Rage (175 BP) vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Keldeo: 208-245 (64.3 - 75.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252 SpA Choice Specs Keldeo Scald vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Heatran: 372-438 (96.3 - 113.4%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery

 

[Guard]

Huge post coming up!

Before I post some nominations, I have a serious request. Could we please rank the Pokemon according to its viability instead of alphabetical order, cause it sends some wrong messages. For example, it gives you the impression that stuff like Celesteela are better than Volcarona, stuff like Chansey are better than Zapdos, etc...I think you can see where I'm going. I can imagine this system gives the wrong messages to inexperienced players and it shouldn't because the goal of a VR is the opposite. I know it's gonna take some time but I'm sure lots of the players would appreciate it. Here's my idea of a VR ranked by viability.

You'll also see that I've added an S+ rank because I think there are some Pokemon that separate themselves from the A+ rank, but didn't yet fit in S-, so here you'll see Landorus-T in S+, the Pokemon that were S- in S and the Pokemon that separate themselves in S-. I thought it was a fitting idea so let me know what you guys think

VR ranked by viability

S Rank:

S+ Rank

Landorus-T

S Rank

Heatran

Kartana

Clefable

S- Rank

Tapu Koko

Magearna

A Rank:

A+ Rank

Greninja-Ash

Ferrothorn

Toxapex

Zygarde

Tapu Bulu

Volcarona

A Rank

Zapdos

Medicham (Mega)

Latios (Mega

Hawlucha

Tapu Lele

Magnezone

Scizor (Mega)

Tyranitar

Greninja

Tornadus-T


A- Rank

Latias (Mega)

Kyurem-B

Pinsir (Mega)

Chansey

Mawile (Mega)

Gliscor

Hoopa-U

Celesteela


B Rank:

B+ Rank

Alakazam (Mega)

Gastrodon

Venusaur (Mega)

Rotom-W

Tyranitar (Mega)

Sableye (Mega)

Keldeo

Swampert (Mega)

Lopunny (Mega)

Pelipper

Reuniclus

Tangrowth

Weavile

Gyarados

B Rank

Charizard (Mega X)

Mew

Garchomp

Gyarados (Mega)

Diancie (Mega)

Mamoswine

Victini

Excadrill

Alomomola

Gengar

Kingdra

Latios

Suicune


B- Rank

Amoonguss

Hippowdon

Heracross (Mega)

Tapu Fini

Charizard (Mega Y)

Mantine

Jirachi

Latias

Terrakion

Quagsire

Volcanion

C Rank:

C+ Rank

Manaphy

Azumarill

Bisharp

Araquanid

Manectric (Mega)

Mimikyu

Thundurus

Blacephalon

Ditto

Skarmory

Stakataka

Hydreigon

Marowak-Alola

Serperior

Shuckle


C Rank

Ninetales-Alola

Muk-Alola

Gallade (Mega)

Alakazam

Camerupt (Mega)

Garchomp (Mega)

Nidoking

Crawdaunt

Cresselia

Slowbro (Mega)

Thundurus-T

Qwilfish

Uxie


C- Rank

Azelf

Aerodactyl (Mega)

Altaria (Mega)

Dragonite

Staraptor

Scolipede

Avalugg

Sharpedo (Mega)

Nihilego

Golem-Alola

Do note that this rankings is no discussion material, but just a visual representation of this nomination. So don't ask me why Pokemon X is ranked higher than Pokemon Y in the same rank.

Having said that, here are my nominations/opinions about some nominations

Clefable A+>>S
Few people have made this nomination already and I agree. Clefable is the best Stealth Rocker right now (yes, in my opinion it is better than fat-Lando) and on top of that, it checks a plethora of incredibly intimidating Pokemon. It fits Hyper Offense, Balance and Stall perfectly and I can't think of an other mon this versatile. It is extremely splashable and very unpredictable with its unmatched movepool.

Tapu Koko A+>>S-
Tapu Koko separates itself from the A+ mons by a mile and here's why. It has a million effective sets: Specs, Magnet/Life Orb, Shuca Berry, Z-Wild Charge, Special Electrium-Z, Special Fairium-Z, Defog+3 Attacks, Roost+3 Attacks, Calm Mind + 3 Attacks and Screens on the top of my head. Its defensive utilities are severely underprepared for and its offensive capabilities are amazing. Oh and did I say this thing alone is the reason why Hawlucha is A…

Magearna A+>>S-
There aren’t a lot of Pokemon that combine offense and defense in the same set as good as Magearna does and thus it is a glue for many teams. Its Vest-set forces the foe to use a Z-move because of its bulk and provides infinite momentum with Volt Switch. On the offensive side, it is able to adapt to almost all of the meta-changes due to its enormous movepool and therefor its Z-move options. Z-Shift-Gearna is devastating and OTR is slept on at the moment. And we also have Double Dance of course(Shift Gear + Calm Mind).

Volcarona A>>A+
Volcarona might have 4-move-slot-syndrome but it forces deadly mindgames with it. Also, the decline of Toxapex frees up Hp-Ground for Heatran and a Z-move for another teammate.

Tapu Bulu A>>A+
This might be a little controversial, but if Koko and Mage leave, it frees up spaces in A+ and I feel like Bulu fits them quite nicely. I believe it is more on the level of Zygarde and Ash-Gren, than it is on the level of Tar and Torn-T. It Vest-set soft checks Koko, Gren, Mage, Lando, Zygarde…do I need to go on? The main thing it provides over Vest-Mage is the very-appreciated ground-(and T-arrows!)resist.

Latios (Mega) A->>A
One of the best megas at the moment, and for many reasons. Its ability to lure Mage and Heatran is invaluable and for an offensive mon, it has surprising longevity.

Zapdos A->>A
Surprised this thing just doesn’t rise. What’s the reason?

Celesteela A>>A-
Starship has fallen in favour because of recent meta-trends. The posts before mine have explained this quite well, so not going into this too deep.

Charizard (Mega Y) C>>B-
Toxapex has fallen, so this should rise. It breaks Lando, Clef, Vest-Mage, Vest-Bulu…heck what doesn’t it break, apart from Chansey and the Eon-duo?

 

[Mellow]

Huge post coming up!

Before I post some nominations, I have a serious request. Could we please rank the Pokemon according to its viability instead of alphabetical order, cause it sends some wrong messages. For example, it gives you the impression that stuff like Celesteela are better than Volcarona, stuff like Chansey are better than Zapdos, etc...I think you can see where I'm going. I can imagine this system gives the wrong messages to inexperienced players and it shouldn't because the goal of a VR is the opposite. I know it's gonna take some time but I'm sure lots of the players would appreciate it. Here's my idea of a VR ranked by viability.

You'll also see that I've added an S+ rank because I think there are some Pokemon that separate themselves from the A+ rank, but didn't yet fit in S-, so here you'll see Landorus-T in S+, the Pokemon that were S- in S and the Pokemon that separate themselves in S-. I thought it was a fitting idea so let me know what you guys think

VR ranked by viability

S Rank:

S+ Rank

Landorus-T

S Rank

Heatran

Kartana

Clefable

S- Rank

Tapu Koko

Magearna

A Rank:

A+ Rank

Greninja-Ash

Ferrothorn

Toxapex

Zygarde

Tapu Bulu

Volcarona

A Rank

Zapdos

Medicham (Mega)

Latios (Mega

Hawlucha

Tapu Lele

Magnezone

Scizor (Mega)

Tyranitar

Greninja

Tornadus-T


A- Rank

Latias (Mega)

Kyurem-B

Pinsir (Mega)

Chansey

Mawile (Mega)

Gliscor

Hoopa-U

Celesteela


B Rank:

B+ Rank

Alakazam (Mega)

Gastrodon

Venusaur (Mega)

Rotom-W

Tyranitar (Mega)

Sableye (Mega)

Keldeo

Swampert (Mega)

Lopunny (Mega)

Pelipper

Reuniclus

Tangrowth

Weavile

Gyarados

B Rank

Charizard (Mega X)

Mew

Garchomp

Gyarados (Mega)

Diancie (Mega)

Mamoswine

Victini

Excadrill

Alomomola

Gengar

Kingdra

Latios

Suicune


B- Rank

Amoonguss

Hippowdon

Heracross (Mega)

Tapu Fini

Charizard (Mega Y)

Mantine

Jirachi

Latias

Terrakion

Quagsire

Volcanion

C Rank:

C+ Rank

Manaphy

Azumarill

Bisharp

Araquanid

Manectric (Mega)

Mimikyu

Thundurus

Blacephalon

Ditto

Skarmory

Stakataka

Hydreigon

Marowak-Alola

Serperior

Shuckle


C Rank

Ninetales-Alola

Muk-Alola

Gallade (Mega)

Alakazam

Camerupt (Mega)

Garchomp (Mega)

Nidoking

Crawdaunt

Cresselia

Slowbro (Mega)

Thundurus-T

Qwilfish

Uxie


C- Rank

Azelf

Aerodactyl (Mega)

Altaria (Mega)

Dragonite

Staraptor

Scolipede

Avalugg

Sharpedo (Mega)

Nihilego

Golem-Alola

Do note that this rankings is no discussion material, but just a visual representation of this nomination. So don't ask me why Pokemon X is ranked higher than Pokemon Y in the same rank.

Having said that, here are my nominations/opinions about some nominations

Clefable A+>>S
Few people have made this nomination already and I agree. Clefable is the best Stealth Rocker right now (yes, in my opinion it is better than fat-Lando) and on top of that, it checks a plethora of incredibly intimidating Pokemon. It fits Hyper Offense, Balance and Stall perfectly and I can't think of an other mon this versatile. It is extremely splashable and very unpredictable with its unmatched movepool.

Tapu Koko A+>>S-
Tapu Koko separates itself from the A+ mons by a mile and here's why. It has a million effective sets: Specs, Magnet/Life Orb, Shuca Berry, Z-Wild Charge, Special Electrium-Z, Special Fairium-Z, Defog+3 Attacks, Roost+3 Attacks, Calm Mind + 3 Attacks and Screens on the top of my head. Its defensive utilities are severely underprepared for and its offensive capabilities are amazing. Oh and did I say this thing alone is the reason why Hawlucha is A…

Magearna A+>>S-
There aren’t a lot of Pokemon that combine offense and defense in the same set as good as Magearna does and thus it is a glue for many teams. Its Vest-set forces the foe to use a Z-move because of its bulk and provides infinite momentum with Volt Switch. On the offensive side, it is able to adapt to almost all of the meta-changes due to its enormous movepool and therefor its Z-move options. Z-Shift-Gearna is devastating and OTR is slept on at the moment. And we also have Double Dance of course(Shift Gear + Calm Mind).

Volcarona A>>A+
Volcarona might have 4-move-slot-syndrome but it forces deadly mindgames with it. Also, the decline of Toxapex frees up Hp-Ground for Heatran and a Z-move for another teammate.

Tapu Bulu A>>A+
This might be a little controversial, but if Koko and Mage leave, it frees up spaces in A+ and I feel like Bulu fits them quite nicely. I believe it is more on the level of Zygarde and Ash-Gren, than it is on the level of Tar and Torn-T. It Vest-set soft checks Koko, Gren, Mage, Lando, Zygarde…do I need to go on? The main thing it provides over Vest-Mage is the very-appreciated ground-(and T-arrows!)resist.

Latios (Mega) A->>A
One of the best megas at the moment, and for many reasons. Its ability to lure Mage and Heatran is invaluable and for an offensive mon, it has surprising longevity.

Zapdos A->>A
Surprised this thing just doesn’t rise. What’s the reason?

Celesteela A>>A-
Starship has fallen in favour because of recent meta-trends. The posts before mine have explained this quite well, so not going into this too deep.

Charizard (Mega Y) C>>B-
Toxapex has fallen, so this should rise. It breaks Lando, Clef, Vest-Mage, Vest-Bulu…heck what doesn’t it break, apart from Chansey and the Eon-duo?

People have brought up the notion of ranking mons by viability in their rank before, while it might seem like a good idea, the differences between each pokemon in each rank are so small that it's impossible to come to a verdict. Also, the main problem is that it just floods the thread with discussion about each mons place in their own rank when it doesn't even really matter.

 

[Guard]

People have brought up the notion of ranking mons by viability in their rank before, while it might seems like a good idea, the differences between each pokemon in each rank are so small that it's impossible to come to a verdict. Also, the main problem is that it just floods the thread with discussion about each mons place in their own rank when it doesn't even really matter.

I get that...Can we then at least rank the S and A-ranks by viability? That isn't a huge strain and I'm sure it would help a lot. And there are differences in my opinion though, that justify this. For example, Tapu Koko is better than Ferro...so is Mage. Celesteela isn't better than Tapu Bulu or Medicham and I'm quite sure Zapdos is better than Hoopa-U.

 

[Colonel M]

I get that...Can we then at least rank the S and A-ranks by viability? That isn't a huge strain and I'm sure it would help a lot. And there are differences in my opinion though, that justify this. For example, Tapu Koko is better than Ferro...so is Mage. Celesteela isn't better than Tapu Bulu or Medicham and I'm quite sure Zapdos is better than Hoopa-U.

No. We are not sorting this by viability. The way it is currently represented is fine. Ranking Pokemon individually within a subtier creates a lot of chaos for little reward.

Please do not argue the point further nor suggest new rankings and focus on rises / falls of Pokemon within subtiers instead.

 

[QY_CS]

Garchomp B -> B+
With the drop of Kyurem-Black, Tapu Lele and Skarmory, Garchomp has a decreased chance of meeting some of its deadliest checks and counters and performs as the best Offensive Stealth Rocker in the meta, which can be reflected through a 1% percent increase in its usage rate. Swords Dance allows Garchomp to break through some of its other check and counters.

+2 252 Atk Life Orb Garchomp Earthquake vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Clefable: 374-441 (94.9 - 111.9%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
With Clefable being more relevant, Life Orb is certainly a good choice for Garchomp to OHKO this pink monster.

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Gastrodon: 442-522 (104 - 122.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
Garchomp can easily OHKO Gastrodon after a SD boost regardless of the item it brings.

252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 237-279 (79.2 - 93.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
252 Atk Garchomp Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tornadus-Therian: 373-441 (124.7 - 147.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
Outrage is capable of defeating Tornadus-T that tries to switch in and Defog the Stealth Rock on its field, while Dragonium-Z allows Garchomp to OHKO it if it tries to switch in when Garchomp uses rocks.

+1 252 Atk Garchomp Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gyarados: 357-421 (107.8 - 127.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO
SD Garchomp will not become a set up bait for Gyarados as the latter does not check the former.

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Hippowdon: 399-469 (95 - 111.6%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery
Even the bulkiest Hippowdon variants cannot survive Dragonium-Z most of the time, and most Hippowdon sets does not fully invest in physical bulk anyways.

+2 252 Atk Garchomp Devastating Drake (190 BP) vs. 252 HP / 212+ Def Reuniclus: 559-658 (131.8 - 155.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Leftovers recovery
While not very relevant in battles, Garchomp is also capable of OHKOing Reuniclus.

Overall, the recent changes has greatly increased utility of Garchomp in many offensive teams, thus it should deserve a shift in rating.

 

[Soul silver fan]

I nominate Salamence for C- from unlisted.

Guys, before you kill me for nominating a shadowrealmed mon, hear me out.

Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-749516082
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-747529709

Ok, here is the set for the Salamence I'm nominating:

Salamence @ Life Orb / Expert Belt
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Spe / 252 SpA / 4 Atk ( you can opt for a bulkier spread to capitalize more on intimidate )
Naive Nature
- Fire Blast
- Hydro Pump / Stone Edge
- Draco Meteor
- Earthquake

Reason #1 for why Sala with this set is viable in the meta: Insane levels of coverage and good level of power in one set

Looking at the set, there are few pokemon in OU that are not 2HKOed or OHKOed by the coverage moves of salamence or by Draco Meteor. Almost anything that Draco Meteor does not 2HKO its coverage moves do.

calcs

0 Atk Life Orb Salamence Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 216-255 (59.5 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Hydro Pump vs. 244 HP / 152 SpD Gliscor: 294-346 (83.5 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal ( it would be OHKO for the stallbreaker variant )

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 335-395 (87.6 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery ( OHKO for more offensive variants )

0 Atk Life Orb Salamence Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 278-328 (98.9 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 182-216 (53 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Skarmory: 367-434 (110.2 - 130.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 Atk Life Orb Salamence Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 169-200 (55.7 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Yeah, sala is gonna break through a lot stuff with support.

The mons that Sala breaks through and surprises easily in one set are very relevant pokemon, like Ferro, gliscor, Lando, scizor, bulu, heatran, celesteela, and others. This gives it a niche as an anti-meta mon that can force switches on many common pokemon in the meta.

And I realize that you can say "gren does the job better; it has more speed and protean and u-turn". However, that brings me to my second reason why Salamence has a niche ( albeit a small one ) in this meta:

Reason #2 for why Sala with this set is viable in the meta: It doesn't have that hard a time switching in compared to other pokemon with the same level of coverage

Intimidate, combined with 5 resistances and 1 immunity to ground, gives it a good deal of opportunities to switch in. While greninja might have more resistances, it lacks intimidate and the ground immunity, making tanking physical hits from pokemon like landorus or kart or finding an opportunity to take advantage of an immunity significantly harder for gren than Salamence. It can then capitalize on the switch in to force the other pokemon out and either allow one of your own mons to switch in, or hit the mon switching in with a coverage move. This is something greninja does not do as well, especially with its lower bulk without intimidate and lower hp, def, and spdef than salamence.

This gives salamence an edge as a switch-in to physcial attackers that can do some real damage, separating itself from greninja.

These key differences are why I believe Salamence deserves a ranking in the VR as a niche mon that can both provide a lot of coverage and function as a switch in to meta pokemons.

 

[Mellow]

I nominate Salamence for C- from unlisted.

Guys, before you kill me for nominating a shadowrealmed mon, hear me out.

Replays:
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-749516082
https://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7ou-747529709

Ok, here is the set for the Salamence I'm nominating:

Salamence @ Life Orb / Expert Belt
Ability: Intimidate
EVs: 252 Spe / 252 SpA / 4 Atk ( you can opt for a bulkier spread to capitalize more on intimidate )
Naive Nature
- Fire Blast
- Hydro Pump / Stone Edge
- Draco Meteor
- Earthquake

Reason #1 for why Sala with this set is viable in the meta: Insane levels of coverage and good level of power in one set

Looking at the set, there are few pokemon in OU that are not 2HKOed or OHKOed by the coverage moves of salamence or by Draco Meteor. Almost anything that Draco Meteor does not 2HKO its coverage moves do.

calcs

0 Atk Life Orb Salamence Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 0 Def Magearna: 216-255 (59.5 - 70.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Hydro Pump vs. 244 HP / 152 SpD Gliscor: 294-346 (83.5 - 98.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Poison Heal ( it would be OHKO for the stallbreaker variant )

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Landorus-Therian: 335-395 (87.6 - 103.4%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Leftovers recovery ( OHKO for more offensive variants )

0 Atk Life Orb Salamence Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Tapu Koko: 278-328 (98.9 - 116.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 56 SpD Assault Vest Tapu Bulu: 182-216 (53 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Grassy Terrain recovery

252 SpA Life Orb Salamence Fire Blast vs. 248 HP / 8 SpD Skarmory: 367-434 (110.2 - 130.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

0 Atk Life Orb Salamence Earthquake vs. 248 HP / 8 Def Toxapex: 169-200 (55.7 - 66%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery

Yeah, sala is gonna break through a lot stuff with support.

The mons that Sala breaks through and surprises easily in one set are very relevant pokemon, like Ferro, gliscor, Lando, scizor, bulu, heatran, celesteela, and others. This gives it a niche as an anti-meta mon that can force switches on many common pokemon in the meta.

And I realize that you can say "gren does the job better; it has more speed and protean and u-turn". However, that brings me to my second reason why Salamence has a niche ( albeit a small one ) in this meta:

Reason #2 for why Sala with this set is viable in the meta: It doesn't have that hard a time switching in compared to other pokemon with the same level of coverage

Intimidate, combined with 5 resistances and 1 immunity to ground, gives it a good deal of opportunities to switch in. While greninja might have more resistances, it lacks intimidate and the ground immunity, making tanking physical hits from pokemon like landorus or kart or finding an opportunity to take advantage of an immunity significantly harder for gren than Salamence. It can then capitalize on the switch in to force the other pokemon out and either allow one of your own mons to switch in, or hit the mon switching in with a coverage move. This is something greninja does not do as well, especially with its lower bulk without intimidate and lower hp, def, and spdef than salamence.

This gives salamence an edge as a switch-in to physcial attackers that can do some real damage, separating itself from greninja.

These key differences are why I believe Salamence deserves a ranking in the VR as a niche mon that can both provide a lot of coverage and function as a switch in to meta pokemons.

Set looks interesting, problem is there's absolutely no reason to use it over Mega Latios. Latios also has great coverage, is stronger, switches into the same things as Salamence (but better thanks to Roost), isn't rocks weak, is faster than Mence, and doesn't kill itself with LO Recoil. To top it all off, the Mega slot isn't as important as it was before, meaning the set is pretty much 100% outclassed by Mega Latios. The only possible thing the set has over Latios is a bit better physical bulk thanks to Intimidate, however again it is weak to rocks and you aren't running any recovery. Also Clef and Gastrodon are everywhere rn and they aren't 2HKOd by anything your set can do to them.

 

[Lugia Proto]

Set looks interesting, problem is there's absolutely no reason to use it over Mega Latios. Latios also has great coverage, is stronger, switches into the same things as Salamence (but better thanks to Roost), isn't rocks weak, is faster than Mence, and doesn't kill itself with LO Recoil. To top it all off, the Mega slot isn't as important as it was before, meaning the set is pretty much 100% outclassed by Mega Latios. The only possible thing the set has over Latios is a bit better physical bulk thanks to Intimidate, however again it is weak to rocks and you aren't running any recovery. Also Clef and Gastrodon are everywhere rn and they aren't 2HKOd by anything your set can do to them.

Well it does have some difference between mega Latios and Salamence. Salamence has intimidate and doesn't take up the mega slot for your team so you could use something like Scizor or Latias instead. These two distinct, small niches are what is believed to separate Latios mega and salamence enough for the argument of it being ranked.

 

[bb skarm]

Intimidate is nice but you need to consider that if you're using a special wallbreaking salamence it won't be as helpful as it would be should you be using like a setup sweeper set. Intimidate is really good on pokemon like gyarados because it lets them sponge hits easier and set up, but it doesn't really provide any direct utility to salamence because if salamence switches on a pokemon that i can immediately OHKO chances are it will switch out

I don't see myself ever using salamence